Date posted here does not necessarily match the date minutes were submitted.
October 6, 2005 at 6:30 pm
Bob & Judy Sharkey
This message is to all the BOD members. As the current Concours Rules Chairperson I would like to have a few questions answered before we continue this project.
After conducting the Concours event at the United this year, I need to understand the reason the club feels that the Concours rules/judging sheets need to be changed. The direction I received before the United was to try and convert TE/AE Concours rules/judging sheets to the style of the Alpha club Conours. The Alpha style is good for Stock car classes, but I don’t think it will work for our Personalized class.
First, can someone tell me what the reason is for changing the rules/judging sheets? Second, if we convert the Stock class rules/judging sheets to the Alpha style we will have two different sets of Concours rules/judging sheets and does the club want this result? Third, did anyone that attended United XXV here of problems with Concours event rules/judging?
I would like to get some information/direction before we invest a lot of effort in Concours rules/judging sheet changes that do not reflect the direction the club really wants to go.
Thanks for your help,
October 7, 2005 at 12:27 pm
Anthony & Susan DiBattista
I will leave these discussions to the BOD. I do not have enough experience with this issue to be of assistance at this point. I feel we need no changes to the Judging sheets, Awards, or Classes.
I did not hear anything negative about the judging of United XXV. I only heard positive comments about your dedication and the dedication of your Judging crew.
I think just adding more technical references to the bottom of the judging sheet as we discussed is the key.
I want to thank you for continuing your efforts to help TE/AE be the best Sunbeam club in the USA if not the world!
October 12, 2005 at 11:57 pm
Eric and Bonnie Gibeaut
I thought the concours went very well this year-you did a fine job organizing it and recruiting judges and help from a diverse group! It has been a few years since I helped judge any cars and I enjoyed it. I can’t remember just why a change to the Alfa Romeo Club’s rules was recommended-can anyone refresh my memory? Thanks, Eric.
October 13, 2005 at 1:38 am
The reason we were considering the Alpha rules was that it was a good objective way of judging stock cars. We never got our arms around how to do Personalized.
I have run the Concours or been a judge for as many years as I can remember and because of this have not seen all the cars at any show in years. I am not alone in this either. One thing to seriously consider is to make it all Popular vote and let the 20 people who are consumed by the Concours actually get to enjoy the event. It is the same folks every year.
October 23, 2005 at 5:58 am
Tom & Joanne Ehrhart
Bob, this is response to your Oct 6 query regarding reason for rules/sheet changes.
I believe it is to improve objectivity of the judging process. It was being done in two ways.
1. Reducing the subjective influence of the judges “impression” in each section which represented approximately 25% of the overall score in each section.
2. Add more measurable or specific points to judge.
As you know, we reduced the points for judges “impression” at this last United. It was a small step. Nothing has been done about # 2. The Alfa standards came along and has been embraced as a good standard to follow.
I suspect the next issue for the BOD to determine the directions it wants to take on this issue.
1. Adopt the Alfa standards.
2. Judge or not to judge personalized.
You have done a lot of work with the Alfa manual and much needs to be done for sure. I’ll be glad to help and perhaps we could recruit some others too should we decide to adopt.
With respect to Personalized, I realize the same people typically judge at each United and miss out on the activities of the moment. In other words it is work. It is easy to use this as an excuse to not judge personalized. But I consider this the wrong reason. We need to decide the value of judging personalized based on merit in the marque. The reality is that most Tigers fit the personalized class as do many Alpines. I proposed a judging process in 2002/2003 era that allowed for objective judging of stock and personalized using virtually the same judging process.
So what do we do next?
October 26, 2005 at 2:43 pm
John & Gwen Logan Sr.
I will agree with Jim M. “One thing to seriously consider is to make it all Popular vote and let the 20 people who are consumed by the Concurs actually get to enjoy the event. It is the same folks every year.”
I don’t think there is enough time enlighten the judges during a United to have the knowledge or respect of modifications to personalized cars. Some tend to judge personalized modifications as though they should be stock.
November 7, 2005 at 4:47 pm
Anthony & Susan DiBattista
Officers and BOD,
I thought there would be more discussion on this important issue. If we do decide to change the Concours rules it will take a good amount of time to implement the changes. If we do change I would like to use the new rules at United XXVI.
I’m sure you have all read Jim Anderson’s letter printed in the Rootes Review that covered this issue and others. If there is no more discussion on this thread then I will call for a vote on “do we need a Concours rules change?” If it’s “NO” then its a dead issue. If the vote is “YES” then we must discuss ideas for the changes. At this point I do not know what else I can do as this discussion has stalled.
Please give me your thoughts. If there are no new ideas introduced by 11-12-05 then I will call for a vote on the above issue. If discussions continue and a course of action is laid out then I will delay the vote.
November 7, 2005 at 8:08 pm
A suggestion…….since we will have two new Board Members as of a few weeks from now and because this is a very important topic, I suggest you postpone the vote and discussion until the new folks are on board.
We should get the views of the new folks who will have to live with and by the decision.
If you want to proceed, I understand and will vote and discuss.
November 8, 2005 at 2:41 am
Steve & Carole Halbrook
We’ve only attended two United events and thought that the judging was very well done at both. I thought that I had learned quite abit about Tigers over the years, but Robert Jaarsma taught me a few new items at the recent event.
My suggestion is to recruit more judges. It is true that you don’t get to spend as much time visiting when you’re judging, but you do get to spend some real quality time looking at each car. Carole and I were trained in Central Florida to judge open car shows several years ago and enjoyed “studying” the cars we judged. Why not seek volunteers, develop a standard inspection sheet (if the current needs improvement), train them and try to come up with a smaller judge to car ratio for the events?
November 8, 2005 at 9:03 pm
John & Gwen Logan Sr.
To Clarify what I said before, I don’t think there is enough time enlighten the judges during a United to have the knowledge or respect of modifications to personalized cars. Some tend to judge personalized modifications as though they should be stock.
November 9, 2005 at 11:51 pm
I thought the judging went extremely well this past year. Kudos to Bob and crew for this.
As most of you know I am a purist and like the stock class and also believe that the Personalized class should be a popular vote. But what I would like to see in the Stock class is more Alpine/Tiger experts helping those with improving their cars for the next time.
November 11, 2005 at 3:44 pm
Robert and Mariet Jaarsma
I agree with Dan, the importance of the concourse is NOT to get that first prize, but to learn more about the cars. This will give participants ideas for the future. This is particularly important for novices.
November 12, 2005 at 3:15 am
Tom & Joanne Ehrhart
Gee, I like Steves approach. Standardized judging sheets and lower judging to car ratio. It has merit.
I believe we have standardized judging sheets in the making. Our present sheets are good in concept but need refinement so less skilled but yet qualified judges can make objective decisions. Actually these sheets have been proposed in the past but have not been used. Adoption of the Alfa rules would be a great help here.
It may be easier to recruit more judges if the workload was parceled out and sheets were more objective.
Judging only stock certainly reduces judging workload. But I do believe there should be some form of judging for personalized. While pop vote is certainly warranted and has value, there are too many cars in the Personalized class to pass off to the masses. The value of an award can be increased if their was objective judging by a select group of experts in the marque. The award would have more credibility and prestige than a pop vote.
November 12, 2005 at 4:54 am
Chuck & Wanda King
The problem with judging the personalized classes is, by definition a large component of it has to do with whether the changes from stock are appealing to the person viewing them. If a change was instituted with great care and precision, but looked like crap (in my mind), it wouldn’t have appeal, and in my opinion shouldn’t have points for greatly executed crap. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What I may not like, many others may.
The stock classes can have true concours judging because they have absolute standards. Anything outside of that, no matter how well executed come down to whether it’s deemed to be pleasing or appropriate to the person viewing or judging it. For that reason I feel that anything outside the stock classes should be by popular vote, even if they’re not “worthy” of judging them.
November 12, 2005 at 6:01 pm
Anthony & Susan DiBattista
Officers, BOD, and Regional Representatives,
Keep the discussion going. I will NOT call for a vote at this time. I hope we will be ready for that next step at the BOD meeting.